Forum Activity for @robin-thompson

I've seen photos and videos of the horrible flooding in Kentucky, including devastation in Hindman.   My heart is with all whose lives have been uprooted by the torrent.  It was good to see on Facebook that mountain dulcimer friend Sarah Kate Morgan had marked herself as safe-- she is on staff at Hindman.  

Oh no, that is horrible!

Tragic news from Kentucky where a flood in Hindman has virtually destroyed the Dulcimer museum and Artisan School.  Loss of life and great sorrow.  Things can be replaced but lives tragically ended............great sorrow there.  News reports say this may be the most devastating flood in Kentucky history. David Bennett has posted photo's on the TTAD site of some of the destruction..........

Strumelia, I think the Seagull Merlin was developed for guitar players who wanted to try playing dulcimer.  I've tried them in the past, but never got comfortable with one, despite my years on guitar.  Somehow, I've taken pretty easily to noter dulcimer playing, with the instrument on my lap, Jean Ritchie style (and many thanks for your YouTube videos for tutorials).

I actually have two instruments - the 1969 28" VSL and an Apple Creek ACD100 24".  The latter has the 6+ fret, which, mainly tuning in Ionian and playing songs from Pete Seeger's American Favorite Ballads, I haven't had much use for as yet.  That book guided me through my first years on guitar, so I'm back to it now for dulcimer.

Thanks, Skip.  No need to hide.  "The confusion I'm feeling, ain't no time can tell".  That's exactly why I started the thread in the first place.  I did write to Bob Force, and await his response.

I've read his chapters on tuning, Mixolydian mode, and other modes and I'm uncomfortable with his approach to "music theory", which is what this thread is about, what's in his book. It seems to be a mixed bag of concepts and, maybe, opinions. 

This feeling is based on everything y'all have taught me along with a lot of time researching and thinking.

Now I'm gonna go hide.  

I agree with Dusty's thoughts in his last post below. As a banjo player, and as I'm sure many guitar players also know, there are 'open tunings' that create a satisfying tonic-note-heavy resolved sound when strummed across all open strings. Fiddlers sometimes use open tunings as well, in order to play tunes heavy on paired drone bowing- they call them cross tunings. In the dulcimer, DAd is such an open tuning, while DAA (for playing in ionian mode) is less so... until you fret the melody string on 3rd fret to create that high D note... and then it's not an 'open strum'.
Many of the young people during the 1960s folk revival who were discovering playing the mountain dulcimer started playing folk music on guitar. The use of a tuning like DAd that both facilitated making chords, playing barr chords, and which had an open/unfretted tonic chord... I imagine was naturally appealing to them.
They added the 6+ fret so they could play popular American folk songs from the newly favored 1-5-8 open string tuning. They also enjoyed turning their dulcimers up on the side to play them in guitar fashion, sometimes hanging them on straps and playing while standing up performing or jamming, and some even played them 'underhand' with their left hand wrapped around to the fretboard from underneath like guitar players do as well. They adjusted the dulcimer and its playing traditions to serve more modern needs.

I can't explain why, but I think the first 4 pages of chapter 4 have a big impact on this subject. It's a whole new way of looking at modes [for me, at least]. It's going to take awhile to digest.

I haven't figured out how the Ionian comment fits yet, probably never will. I don't think the current mode applications [theory?] apply though. He's coming at it from a different angle.

X X+3 XX is his take on DAd tuning. He starts on the melody string[s] [XX] then middle [X+3], then X an octave lower.

I downloaded the book from his site.

Thanks, Ken.  Although I've been singing and playing guitar for many years, music theory in any form has always alluded me, for some reason.  I did see the book is on Robert Force's website, but I've been reading it on Open Library, which I found a bit more reader friendly.  I may contact him about my question, though.

CGG and DAA are both Ionian Modal Tunings.  Instead of letters some folks use numbers to indicate the Modes generically -- rather than saying "CGG and DAA" the say  1-5-5 to indicate that 1 is 'whatever' bass note, and the Middle drone and Melody strings are both tuning "a fifth above" -- that is 5 note higher than the Bass note.  

Likewise DAd and CGc are both Mixolydian Modal tunes designated numerically 1-5-8.  The Middle drone is "a fifth above" and the Melody string is "an octave above" the Bass string. 

The other two commonly used Modal Tunings are Dorian -- numbered 1-5-4, and Aeolian -- numbered 1-5-7.  In Dorian tunings the Melody string is tuned "four notes higher" than the Bass.  In Aeolian the Melody string is tuned "7 notes higher" than the Bass string.

As an aside, you can always ask Robert Force what he meant directly.  He's still around and doing at least some Festivals.  In Search of... is available free online at www.robertforce.com.  Use the Contact to reach him directly.

In reading and rereading their x x+4 x x notation method, I'm not positive that their Ionian is my Ionian. CGG would not be notated the way they've written it, I don't think. In any event, you've confirmed what my ears heard - Ionian and Mixolydian sound fine when played open.

By the way, I just found that comment in the book and am still not sure what they mean by it.  Perhaps the idea is that the open strum in an ionian tuning does not include a "do" on the melody string. As someone who usually tunes to a 1-5-8 or mixolydian tuning, I can attest to how how nice it is to be able finish most songs by lifting up your fretting hand entirely and just resolving to an open strum.  The open strum in an ionian tuning sounds just fine as a chord but doesn't resolve the melody to the root or do the way our modern ears prefer.

Thanks Dusty. After years of guitar playing I can hear a dissonant chord.

I'm not sure what Force and d'Ossché intend with that comment, but both CGG (ionian) or CGc (mixolydian) tunings give us "partial" chords with the open strings.  Both have the root (do) and the fifth (sol) but not the third (mi).

In short, strumming your open CGG strings should sound just fine.

There was a really nice piece by Lindsay Zoladz in the NY Times on Joni's appearance at Newport, celebrating the bravery of an aging woman who recently suffered an aneurism and had to re-learn how to walk re-interpreting her music with a voice a couple of octaves below the voice that made her famous.

I've been reading In Search of the Wild Dulcimer, and under the tuning mode section it says a disadvantage of Ionian is the lack of an open strum. Is that right? I know that do is on the third fret, but I thought CGG as open tuning sounded ok? Thanks

Oh, that last line that Joni sang out in the video- "Oh you're a mean old daddy but you're outa sight"....  so wonderful to see that, it made me cry. 

Better to take material off the bottom of a nut or bridge to reduce height.  Deep notches can "run into each other on the top"...  Search on here on the phrase "nickel and dime" and you'll find descriptions on reducing string height to a good level.

Thanks (again) Skip.  I was able to deepen the nut notches, and the action is a bit lower on that end.  Tried to do the same on the bridge end, but there isn't much area to work with.  Splitting the difference, as you describe, seems to be the way to go, here.

I agree, Dusty, Brandi did an amazing job of singing Carey. She sounded just like Joni!

Thanks, @dusty-turtle.  I saw the clips you saw, it seems.  Pretty cool.

Changing strings or tuning isn't going to do much. The problem is the extra height causes the tension for the length to be too much. What may help is to lower the nut [or deepen the notch a bit], make sure the string is touching the bridge as far back as possible and kind of split the difference between sharp/flat [open/affected fret]. It should be ok to be on the slightly sharp side rather than the flat side as flat is annoying and more obvious. If it's less than about 10 cents [usually in the green on the tuner] it is probably acceptable to most folks.

Here's a photo showing the string height.

dulcimer1.pdf - 106KB

Now that I'm sort of getting used to the wooden tuning pegs, I've started to notice that the melody string on my 1969 hand built dulcimer is always sharp when I use the noter (28.5" VSL, staple frets only under the melody string).  I've tried easing up on the noter pressure, which helps a bit.  If I tune the string down just a touch (slightly flat) it sounds better anywhere up the fretboard but when played open.  Problem is the instrument seems to have been built with a high sitting bridge (which I assume is causing the string to go sharp when pressed at the fret). The bridge of course cannot be lowered except to cut down the end cap holding the bridge (which I wouldn't do).  The bridge itself is about as low on the end cap as it can go, sticking up just slightly.  The nut placement is ok - if the bridge were at that level, there wouldn't be a problem.  The action, from the top of fret to string, is - first fret 1/16, middle 1/8, last fret 3/16 (all approximate).

Any ideas?  Go heavier or lighter on string gauge?  Different tuning (CGG at the moment)?  Thanks

I don't think so, Robin.  I remember "A Case of You" and "Both Sides Now" and some instrumental Joni played on an electric guitar.  I don't think there was a dulcimer in any of that.

@ken-hulme You can always sing or play spoons if no luthier is to be found.  

@dusty-turtle Was there more mountain dulcimer visible in the video you saw (versus the one I posted below)? 

I saw another video of this set a day or two ago.  Brandi Carlisle does an amazing job singing Joni's songs.  I hope Joni understands the profound love so many of us have for her music.

I'll be playing on Orkney, provided I can find a luthier I know who lives there.  Gonna be hard to fit even my travel dulcimer into my luggage for a 4 week trip to the UK...

I just found your piece and absolutely love it.  Thank you for such beautiful work!  

Mark & I have been practicing our tune for PMOTPD.  Hope y'all are planning to participate!

You'll hear mountain dulcimer long before you'll see it and, no, Joni Mitchell isn't playing it (though she was the big surprise guest at Newport).  

One of the Hanseroth twins (Brandi Carlisle group) opens Carey with mountain dulcimer and you see a quick look at him on dulcimer later in the video. 

Hearts of the Dulcimer Podcast - Episode 57
New York, New York

https://dulcimuse.com/podcast

We spoke with people born and raised in New York City in the 1950s and 60s who have become well-known dulcimer players. With Joellen Lapidus, Holly Tannen, Doug Berch, and Rob Brereton.

You can listen to all of the  Hearts of the Dulcimer Podcast  episodes directly on our website: https://dulcimuse.com/podcast  or anywhere you listen to podcasts.

Here's the resource page for this episode: https://dulcimuse.com/podcast/resource/057.html

Thanks for listening!

Patricia Delich & Wayne Jiang

Steven there's no need at all to understand modes at this point in time. Just sayin'!    lolol

Steven:

LOL I started the same way, with only a sparse, barely remembered, 3rd grade understanding of music,,,,,,,, at 60 or so! It's been an interesting, and fun, trip so far. I've met, or talked, to a lot of really helpful, knowledgeable, folks along the way.

Steve -- the short answer is that Modes are scales - do, re, me fa, sol, la, ti , and do again is the Ionian Mode, which guitars etc call the Major.   Other scales (Modes) have other sequences of notes.  It's music theory.  Don't worry.

Diatonic means that the fretboard does not have all of the half steps that chromatic fretboard does -- which is why there are wide spaces between some frets and narrow spaces between other frets.  On a chromatic fretboard those wide spaces would have another fret in the middle.

Skip:  I've never had a banjo lesson so, with the exception of a few chapters of "Banjo for Dummies", I'm self-taught.  Music theory is a complete mystery to me so anything beyond "Put your finger here and pick this string" is over my head.

@ Steven

Just look at modes as being the names of a re-ordered scale. CDEFGABC to DEFGABCD is a diatonic [8 note] scale changing modes, all the same notes, different order.

Ken:  No offense was intended.  My head exploding comment was a reflection on ME not you.  I found that the whole diatonic/myxalodian/ionian concept was difficult (at least for me) to take in.  Thanks for your previous words of encouragement and thank you for your offer of further instruction.  

It really will be pretty easy to for you to learn the basics, you have 11 years of music background to help. Many folks start with with with none.

Remember back when you started with the banjo. You probably started with a childs song and picked it out one note at a time on one string. With the dulcimer that's the standard, normal way for n/d and finger dancing. You pick out a melody on the melody string, one note at a time, with no concern for any of the other strings [the're just drones to fill out the sound]. Then you do the same thing but strum across all of the things at the same time as you fret the note. When you've gotten to this point you've caught up with 50% or more of MD players.